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Friday August 24th Xibalba, Alpha & Omega, Power Trip & More

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jackiepapers wrote:
turn_coat wrote:
jackiepapers wrote:http://devilsbed.tumblr.com/post/29610487844/last-night-during-xibalbas-set-the-entire-tour

...much like this one you probably didn't read, but decided instead to take a stranger's word on something you know nothing about and have no way of ever fully understanding. You weren't there, you will probably never know what actually happened, and you should quit dragging folks' names through the mud.

Did you read where I said I was getting information from multiple sources and the band admitted there was a confrontation?

"Band admitted there was a confrontation" essentially means "well something sure happened". You also have yet to do anything but allude to these sources. If you're going to make these kinds of allegations you damn well better be prepared to back them up. This is the hardcore scene, not Rolling Stone.



This is an unedited version of my partner’s exchange.

Wednesday night at the Astoria in Vancouver there was an incident with members of the touring band Alpha and Omega. As already well documented by my partner she was grabbed and assaulted by a member of one of the bands with what appeared to be premeditated collusion by a guitarist from Xibalba.

What followed was an exchange with the bands. She attempted to talk to the guy in question and got no where. I approached them to try and talk through it. My basic request was that an apology wasn’t sufficient, I wanted them to agree to make sure no one on their tour did anything like that again. The responses I was met with consisted of the following:

“We said sorry so it’s done.”

“Don’t talk to that fagot.”

“What are you going to do it’s 20 against 1.”

“Shut up or we will kill you faggot.”

and more of the same.

When I spoke to other band members one on one they all seemed genuinely sorry and apologetic but the group of would then surround me and anyone I was talking to and start threatening to kick my ass. Although I’m not a pacifist and never stated I am one, unlike the one band member said in my account, I am not suicidal. The bands made it clear that they preferred fighting to talking and getting seriously hurt by a group of goons is never my idea of a good way to resolve a situation. If the tables were reversed I would feel the same, dialogue and preventing repetitions of oppressive behavior is far more important.

My final conversation was with a younger guy who seemed to be the tour manager. We managed to talk for a couple of minutes while he tried to tell me that the group saying sorry was enough. The conversation quickly ended with ten or so band members surrounding us and repeatedly saying “Stop talking to that faggot” and “We’re going to kill you faggot.”

We left after that knowing the only apparent outcome was getting attacked by the bands. The misogyny and homophobia expressed by these bands is nothing surprising in hardcore history. To change hardcore isn’t a goal of mine, I’ve seen these incidents and the scene rallying around dudes in bands for too long. The only way to make change is to ensure people in the scene do not tolerate this kind of behavior from anyone, in a band or not.





This “rodie” was then identified as Louise of Alpha & Omega, presumably another hardcore band. He comes out and says what I’ve reblogged above. Here’s what he says specifically about the alleged sexual assault:

I was on top of a table for the majority of the set. During the last song, Xibalba’s guitar player started dancing around next to a girl that was on the floor in front of me. I reached down to put my hands on her shoulders to dance with her, when she turned around and punched me in the mouth three times.

But, she still wanted to argue that no one should touch anyone at a show. I disagreed and said that if you’re going to a hardcore/punk show that you should expect to get bumped into, possibly pushed, shoved or have some kind of physical contact with the crowd. She disagreed. I said we should agree to disagree and she then called me names and I walked away

This Louise guy is a fucking trip.

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jackiepapers wrote:
dhr wrote:
jackiepapers wrote:
dhr wrote:
jackiepapers wrote:http://devilsbed.tumblr.com/post/29610487844/last-night-during-xibalbas-set-the-entire-tour

...much like this one you probably didn't read, but decided instead to take a stranger's word on something you know nothing about and have no way of ever fully understanding. You weren't there, you will probably never know what actually happened, and you should quit dragging folks' names through the mud.

"We will never know the facts, so quit trying to ruin my fun! This woman, like most other women who claim to be assaulted, is probably lying. Just let me mosh to really bad bro metal in peace!"

There, now we have your point of view.

Ahem, did I ever DENY any of that shit happening? I'm just saying you internet trolls oughta mind your own damn business and stop reblogging gossip just because you want everyone else out there to think you're SO opinionated. Fuck your scene politics, quit talkin shit.

Shut the fuck up, newjack.

Ha, I guess I have no defense against that one. Keep your shitty attitude behind the computer screen.

People in this thread know me and my shitty attitude in real life. Who the fuck are you?

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Why do you all feel the need to take it so personally when someone disagrees with you? If you read the articles on this thread you will see two VERY different stories from extremely biased parties, and somehow you take it upon yourselves to (based entirely on your politics) wholeheartedly back one of them? I don't know who is right either, but I'm not the one saying we should go beat the shit out of Alpha and Omega. This isn't about who is or isn't a sexist, it's the difference between knowing shit and chiming in with your pretentious two cents without any real perspective on the situation. Long story short, as far as you are concerned both (and neither) parties deserve the benefit of the doubt and therefore you are in no position to overzealously spew your uninformed opinion, much less talk shit about anyone who doesn't share it.

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jackiepapers wrote:Why do you all feel the need to take it so personally when someone disagrees with you? If you read the articles on this thread you will see two VERY different stories from extremely biased parties, and somehow you take it upon yourselves to (based entirely on your politics) wholeheartedly back one of them? I don't know who is right either, but I'm not the one saying we should go beat the shit out of Alpha and Omega. This isn't about who is or isn't a sexist, it's the difference between knowing shit and chiming in with your pretentious two cents without any real perspective on the situation. Long story short, as far as you are concerned both (and neither) parties deserve the benefit of the doubt and therefore you are in no position to overzealously spew your uninformed opinion, much less talk shit about anyone who doesn't share it.

Why are you taking it so personal people have opinions?

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jackiepapers wrote:Why do you all feel the need to take it so personally when someone disagrees with you? If you read the articles on this thread you will see two VERY different stories from extremely biased parties, and somehow you take it upon yourselves to (based entirely on your politics) wholeheartedly back one of them? I don't know who is right either, but I'm not the one saying we should go beat the shit out of Alpha and Omega. This isn't about who is or isn't a sexist, it's the difference between knowing shit and chiming in with your pretentious two cents without any real perspective on the situation. Long story short, as far as you are concerned both (and neither) parties deserve the benefit of the doubt and therefore you are in no position to overzealously spew your uninformed opinion, much less talk shit about anyone who doesn't share it.

Well, one of the details that holds true in both stories is that a guy put his hands on a woman and "danced" with her and she punched him in reaction. If I boil it down to just that, how does it look?

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jackiepapers wrote:Why do you all feel the need to take it so personally when someone disagrees with you? If you read the articles on this thread you will see two VERY different stories from extremely biased parties, and somehow you take it upon yourselves to (based entirely on your politics) wholeheartedly back one of them? I don't know who is right either, but I'm not the one saying we should go beat the shit out of Alpha and Omega. This isn't about who is or isn't a sexist, it's the difference between knowing shit and chiming in with your pretentious two cents without any real perspective on the situation. Long story short, as far as you are concerned both (and neither) parties deserve the benefit of the doubt and therefore you are in no position to overzealously spew your uninformed opinion, much less talk shit about anyone who doesn't share it.

How enlightened!

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PS

"Because a hardcore kid who doesn't stand for anything is just a metalhead."

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dhr wrote:Look, if your first reaction to these situations is not to say "fuck these bands," then fuck you.

There's having an opinion, then there's this. Or encouraging people to go to a show just to beat someone's ass. No, you're in the right.

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sadheeb :..( wrote:
jackiepapers wrote:Why do you all feel the need to take it so personally when someone disagrees with you? If you read the articles on this thread you will see two VERY different stories from extremely biased parties, and somehow you take it upon yourselves to (based entirely on your politics) wholeheartedly back one of them? I don't know who is right either, but I'm not the one saying we should go beat the shit out of Alpha and Omega. This isn't about who is or isn't a sexist, it's the difference between knowing shit and chiming in with your pretentious two cents without any real perspective on the situation. Long story short, as far as you are concerned both (and neither) parties deserve the benefit of the doubt and therefore you are in no position to overzealously spew your uninformed opinion, much less talk shit about anyone who doesn't share it.

Well, one of the details that holds true in both stories is that a guy put his hands on a woman and "danced" with her and she punched him in reaction. If I boil it down to just that, how does it look?

You think this makes a case for making someone out to be a rapist (sexual assault is an ugly word)? Or accusing anyone who DOESN'T crucify this guy of being a sexist? If you boil it down to just that I think his apology should suffice and people on practically the opposite side of the continent should keep their fucking noses out of it.

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jackiepapers wrote:
dhr wrote:Look, if your first reaction to these situations is not to say "fuck these bands," then fuck you.

There's having an opinion, then there's this. Or encouraging people to go to a show just to beat someone's ass. No, you're in the right.

You quoted the only mature, logical, and acceptable position. You are a worthless apologist.

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dhr wrote:
jackiepapers wrote:
dhr wrote:Look, if your first reaction to these situations is not to say "fuck these bands," then fuck you.

There's having an opinion, then there's this. Or encouraging people to go to a show just to beat someone's ass. No, you're in the right.

You quoted the only mature, logical, and acceptable position. You are a worthless apologist.

I bet you've always wanted to call someone that, haven't you? The mature ones always start the name calling. Just remember to hit "reblog", hippie.

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No, I call people that all of the time. Especially all of the punk rock tourists like yourself who are just passing by for 3 years before you're onto your next trend.

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dhr wrote:No, I call people that all of the time. Especially all of the punk rock tourists like yourself who are just passing by for 3 years before you're onto your next trend.

Sticks and stones, I've put in my time and some bickering gobshite on the internet can't take that away from me. Sad thing is for you, when in 6 months everything you stand for now is un-P.C. and you don't know who to hate anymore.

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jackiepapers wrote:
dhr wrote:No, I call people that all of the time. Especially all of the punk rock tourists like yourself who are just passing by for 3 years before you're onto your next trend.

Sticks and stones, I've put in my time and some bickering gobshite on the internet can't take that away from me. Sad thing is for you, when in 6 months everything you stand for now is un-P.C. and you don't know who to hate anymore.

You haven't put in anything and I've been hating the same bullshit since 95. Try harder.

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dhr wrote:
jackiepapers wrote:
dhr wrote:No, I call people that all of the time. Especially all of the punk rock tourists like yourself who are just passing by for 3 years before you're onto your next trend.

Sticks and stones, I've put in my time and some bickering gobshite on the internet can't take that away from me. Sad thing is for you, when in 6 months everything you stand for now is un-P.C. and you don't know who to hate anymore.

You haven't put in anything and I've been hating the same bullshit since 95. Try harder.

Sweet, more ignorant assumptions. Did you pretend to know everything back in '95 too? I'm over it, go to the show and talk your shit to the bands if you're so dead-set on being right.

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dhr wrote:I've been hating the same bullshit since 95. Try harder.

the list just keeps growing...

also i talked to some canadian friends. one of my friends (who i also have a "work" relationship with as well) is "the guy who posted the text message on tumblr". he is almost 40, has been playing in hardcore bands over half his life, and is about the least dramatic person i can think of. not someone prone to hyperbole at all, not into rumors, and probably even more bitter than mike p. no one in this thread called luis a rapist but there are people all over the world who don't want sexual harassment in hardcore and aren't going to "penn state" a band.

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sadheeb :..( wrote:
dhr wrote:I've been hating the same bullshit since 95. Try harder.

the list just keeps growing...

also i talked to some canadian friends. one of my friends (who i also have a "work" relationship with as well) is "the guy who posted the text message on tumblr". he is almost 40, has been playing in hardcore bands over half his life, and is about the least dramatic person i can think of. not someone prone to hyperbole at all, not into rumors, and probably even more bitter than mike p. no one in this thread called luis a rapist but there are people all over the world who don't want sexual harassment in hardcore and aren't going to "penn state" a band.

Thank you! You see, THAT is the appropriate response I've been waiting for. Not just mindlessly repeating rumors from a source you can't even vouch for. I know no one here called Luis a rapist, but I distinctly recall somewhere (in the original tumblr post?) someone using the term "sexual assault", which can be a REAL ugly thing to accuse someone of publicly. By no means am I looking to make enemies on here, but for fuck's sake why would anyone be against fact-checking?

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jackiepapers wrote:
sadheeb :..( wrote:
dhr wrote:I've been hating the same bullshit since 95. Try harder.

the list just keeps growing...

also i talked to some canadian friends. one of my friends (who i also have a "work" relationship with as well) is "the guy who posted the text message on tumblr". he is almost 40, has been playing in hardcore bands over half his life, and is about the least dramatic person i can think of. not someone prone to hyperbole at all, not into rumors, and probably even more bitter than mike p. no one in this thread called luis a rapist but there are people all over the world who don't want sexual harassment in hardcore and aren't going to "penn state" a band.

Thank you! You see, THAT is the appropriate response I've been waiting for. Not just mindlessly repeating rumors from a source you can't even vouch for. I know no one here called Luis a rapist, but I distinctly recall somewhere (in the original tumblr post?) someone using the term "sexual assault", which can be a REAL ugly thing to accuse someone of publicly. By no means am I looking to make enemies on here, but for fuck's sake why would anyone be against fact-checking?

This whole bitch-fest is fucking dumb.

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okay, the bitch-fest discussion got off on the wrong foot, but is my personal interpretation that what he did is sexual harassment and that is never welcome anywhere ever with me. If I tried to talk about it afterword and people said I was over reacting, called me faggot, and threatened to beat the shit out of me...well, stop me when you think it starts getting inappropriate.

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sadheeb :..( wrote:okay, the bitch-fest discussion got off on the wrong foot, but is my personal interpretation that what he did is sexual harassment and that is never welcome anywhere ever with me. If I tried to talk about it afterword and people said I was over reacting, called me faggot, and threatened to beat the shit out of me...well, stop me when you think it starts getting inappropriate.

Agreed, my point being both parties gave greatly varying accounts, I have no reason to believe one over the other, therefore I don't do anything under the assumption that either is true. Except the part about putting his hands on the girl's shoulder and trying to dance with her, but that's moderately douche-y at worst. But hey, if you can vouch for one of the parties then yeah, that's a whole different situation. NO BEEF, k?

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OK. So in the guy's statement, he admits to unwanted physical contact on two separate occasions. He admits to discrediting her feelings and reactions, and tries to justify it by saying it's just something that happens at "hardcore" shows.
He just admitted to being a sexist fucking asshole who physically and verbally assaulted someone, and that he is not sorry. FUCK THIS GUY and fuck these bands for having his back. They might as well be the ones to do it themselves for condoning it.
On top of that, the story of what happened afterwards, with a big group of dudes threatening and saying hateful things towards another person, is fucked up.

So yeah, what more do you need? Video evidence? The guy fucking admitted it himself?!

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Rorik wrote:OK. So in the guy's statement, he admits to unwanted physical contact on two separate occasions. He admits to discrediting her feelings and reactions, and tries to justify it by saying it's just something that happens at "hardcore" shows.
He just admitted to being a sexist fucking asshole who physically and verbally assaulted someone, and that he is not sorry. FUCK THIS GUY and fuck these bands for having his back. They might as well be the ones to do it themselves for condoning it.
On top of that, the story of what happened afterwards, with a big group of dudes threatening and saying hateful things towards another person, is fucked up.

So yeah, what more do you need? Video evidence? The guy fucking admitted it himself?!

This is why Rorik is punk. Fuck this guy, fuck these bands, and fuck you if you disagree.

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In fairness, this show, these bands, and the kids into this stuff are only tangentially "punk" and this is a totally separate "scene" from anything with which I identify.

It's situations like these that make me miss the 90s.

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a lot of stuff like this i call hardcore without the punk.

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sadheeb :..( wrote:a lot of stuff like this i call hardcore without the punk.

Right, and I don't even think it's necessarily a bad thing. Be into whatever you like.

And I'm not bitter...I'm uncompromising!

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